Failure to provide specimen without reasonable excuse 😔

[anemone]

No my story definitely hasn’t changed.. what I’m saying is that they didn’t offer me a fourth attempt. I failed the first two attempts but gave a reading on the third go.

In their statement, the police are saying that they gave me four attempts. Three of which they’re saying failed but the fourth gave a reading and that’s not the case and the CCTV will verify this.

My point here is that I’m holding my hands up to my crime but I’m being dealt a dirty hand by the police in return. The court system is supposed to be all about honesty, fairness and justice isn’t it? I’m sorry but lying on their statement is none of those things.

And Sundog, you’re bang on the money! I’ve made my solicitor aware, hence looking into the CCTV footage etc. Once that’s been looked into and my mind is put to rest, I can then move on from this.

I know ultimately I’m buggered with this bloody charge and may have to plead guilty at some point before trial but I have to do what feels right for me and it at this point, it’s to investigate the police evidence which now has to be submitted within 28 days.

By the way, I was in custody for two hours only. Once I’d done the station breath test, they gave me my belongings back inclusive of car keys and sent me on my way! What kind of bullshit is that.. I left my car where it was and rang myself a taxi and collected the following day..

I’ll keep you posted with any updates

I've learned from an expert that the machine (if its an Intoxilyser 6000 as many use) goes for 3 minutes before having to recycle and start again. Did the machine time out, or did they just refuse a fourth blow? They should allow as many blows as can be accommodated within 3 minutes. What did they provide for IDPC at your first hearing? In any case, they will have to come up with the CCTV of the breath test within 28 days of your hearing now that you've pleaded NG. In any case, good on you for fighting this. Don't give up!

 

[SS13]

I've learned from an expert that the machine (if its an Intoxilyser 6000 as many use) goes for 3 minutes before having to recycle and start again. Did the machine time out, or did they just refuse a fourth blow? They should allow as many blows as can be accommodated within 3 minutes. What did they provide for IDPC at your first hearing? In any case, they will have to come up with the CCTV of the breath test within 28 days of your hearing now that you've pleaded NG. In any case, good on you for fighting this. Don't give up!

Thank you Anemone

I’m not 100% sure as to whether the machine timed out.. I don’t recall anything being mentioned at the time. I just remember the female officer (who was lovely) enquiring as to whether I would get a fourth attempt and the male officer saying no.

The IDPC only contained the police statement as far as I’m aware but Im going to speak to my solicitor on Monday to see if the breathalyser results where also submitted, as surely that would confirm how many attempts were given.

 

[SS13]

You took a barrister to a Mags' Court? Rightly or wrongly, that's sure one way to rub the bench up the wrong way!

Unfortunately I think you are overthinking. Even if the CCTV were to show you were given one fewer attempt than being claimed, you were still given enough that you didn't succeed with to be charged with FTP.

Think of it like this - if someone blew a low-ish reading, then if they were allowed to delay the second one until it was under 40 by not blowing properly again and again, they would.

Given were were barely over the limit on the one sample you gave (which can't be used in evidence), I assume you were rolling around drunk and making an arse of yourself at the station? If my assumption is right, you'll get the minimum ban. Just without the reduction for an early guilty plea, if you continue down the me, the police lying on their statement is an indication that they’re not

You took a barrister to a Mags' Court? Rightly or wrongly, that's sure one way to rub the bench up the wrong way!

Unfortunately I think you are overthinking. Even if the CCTV were to show you were given one fewer attempt than being claimed, you were still given enough that you didn't succeed with to be charged with FTP.

Think of it like this - if someone blew a low-ish reading, then if they were allowed to delay the second one until it was under 40 by not blowing properly again and again, they would.

Given were were barely over the limit on the one sample you gave (which can't be used in evidence), I assume you were rolling around drunk and making an arse of yourself at the station? If my assumption is right, you'll get the minimum ban. Just without the reduction for an early guilty plea, if you continue down the trial route.

Ultimately, if it’s proven on the CCTV that the police are lying on their statement, for me it then casts doubt on the rest of the police procedure and I owe it to myself to check that this has been fully followed and adhered to before surrendering to a HRO charge that is going to affect the rest of my life

 

[Coostietightner123]

Ultimately, if it’s proven on the CCTV that the police are lying on their statement, for me it then casts doubt on the rest of the police procedure and I owe it to myself to check that this has been fully followed and adhered to before surrendering to a HRO charge that is going to affect the rest of my life

It will affect the next 11 years, however will be spent after 5 years. That’s not the rest of your life. Just adding a little perspective.

 

[JamesH2122]

Ultimately, if it’s proven on the CCTV that the police are lying on their statement, for me it then casts doubt on the rest of the police procedure and I owe it to myself to check that this has been fully followed and adhered to before surrendering to a HRO charge that is going to affect the rest of my life

Depends on what job you do. Vast majority of careers it won't make a difference and I assume you don't need to drive as you said you were happy to take a drink drive conviction rather than FTP?

There are so many job vacancies at the moment that need filling that more blind eyes are being turned than ever.

And consider this - at a job interview you could say "yeah, I'm convinced the machine wasn't working properly but my solicitor told me to plead guilty so I could get on with my life" which would probably come across better than "I drove pissed".

Obviously if you are a police officer or MI6 then things may be different but...

Another thought - a trial is much, much more likely to be picked up by the press, including being reported online. Unless you have a very common name, this could follow you around forever (don't assume the Right to be Forgotten will be available or, frankly, make any difference once enough people know about you)

 

[Sundog]

It will affect the next 11 years, however will be spent after 5 years. That’s not the rest of your life. Just adding a little perspective.

Coostie is (as usual) bang-on. It won’t. I was only just saying to someone else just now that I can’t believe I get to Compare the Meerkat next year. Life does return to normal.

Even stranger is looking forward to Comparing Meerkats. Never thought I’d hear myself saying that…

 

[stu12341234]

Ultimately, if it’s proven on the CCTV that the police are lying on their statement, for me it then casts doubt on the rest of the police procedure and I owe it to myself to check that this has been fully followed and adhered to before surrendering to a HRO charge that is going to affect the rest of my life

Hi,

If you whole heartedly believe there is a mistake, Fight!.

At the end of the day if you loose and know they are wrong atleast you did not just roll over and give up to get it to go away and move on so to speak
...good on you! I wish you the best of luck.

Keep your head up.

Kind regards,




Stu

 

[tidalwave]

hi chaps,heres my story,crashed my son's car into a wall xmas eve 2 years ago,was knocked out,broke 7 seven ribs my sternum and nose,woke up in leeds lgi,strapped to a board surrounded by medical staff and police,didn;t have a clue what had happened,
had been out dropping presents off and met some mates in town,it was at the time of the boris menu and everywhere shut at 10.
i had 4 pints of normal lager over about 3 hours.
anyway police had a blood sample,for which they wanted me to sign a consent form for them to test,which i refused as i didn;t know what was going on,as had been sedated by medical staff as i had head injuries.
went home 3 days later,had to smash a window and climb through,with 7 broken ribs etc,as police had my car/house keys.
6 weeks later a summons is posted for rtp i took legal advice,and was advised to go not guilty.
so went to court and watched 4 hours of body cam evidence,where i was very aggressive with the police,and was asking where my daughter was,this was my downfall as the bench decided i was fully coherent and new what i was doing by refusuing consent,if i had a good case i had one,but was found guilty,what i am saying is it is very hard to get off with refusing to provide,my defence was i was knocked out and sedated so was confused and didn't know what was going on,all good now got my liscence back in june 5 weeks after my bann ended,due to dvla baack logs.

 

[SS13]

Update on my case: plead Not Guilty at first hearing and upcoming trial date March

Over view of case: I blew 65 at roadside and at the station I was given four attempts (initially thought 3) at blowing into the machine to provide two samples. I only managed one partial specimen of 41. One of the attempts as confirmed on CCTV beeped before I even had chance to blow so felt this was an unfair and missed opportunity to provide. Hence pleading not guilty in order to have CCTV and police procedure etc looked into.

As per my solicitor, my defence is that it was the detention officer who did the procedure and not the officer who completed my MGDD form - he also didn’t appear to know what he was doing or that he could offer a further attempt to obtain a sample.

I have since had an export report done on my breathalyser results which has come back favourable. The volumes and times on the printout are incorrect and do not reflect my attempts. Also the detaining officer doing the procedure didn’t inform me that there was a minimum flow rate and pressure to provide a sample which contributed to my failure to provide.

The CPS have requested that the expert attend for questioning but he is not available for my trial date so I can either request to vacate trial (more expense) for when he is available or request my report is read out in court - although this may be declined by the judge so my only defence on the day would then be that the officer didn’t know what he was doing…

Just wondered if anyone has any experience of these expert reports and whether it actually carries any weight in court?

Many thanks

 

[WinterSnow]

Update on my case: plead Not Guilty at first hearing and upcoming trial date March

Over view of case: I blew 65 at roadside and at the station I was given four attempts (initially thought 3) at blowing into the machine to provide two samples. I only managed one partial specimen of 41. One of the attempts as confirmed on CCTV beeped before I even had chance to blow so felt this was an unfair and missed opportunity to provide. Hence pleading not guilty in order to have CCTV and police procedure etc looked into.

As per my solicitor, my defence is that it was the detention officer who did the procedure and not the officer who completed my MGDD form - he also didn’t appear to know what he was doing or that he could offer a further attempt to obtain a sample.

I have since had an export report done on my breathalyser results which has come back favourable. The volumes and times on the printout are incorrect and do not reflect my attempts. Also the detaining officer doing the procedure didn’t inform me that there was a minimum flow rate and pressure to provide a sample which contributed to my failure to provide.

The CPS have requested that the expert attend for questioning but he is not available for my trial date so I can either request to vacate trial (more expense) for when he is available or request my report is read out in court - although this may be declined by the judge so my only defence on the day would then be that the officer didn’t know what he was doing…

Just wondered if anyone has any experience of these expert reports and whether it actually carries any weight in court?

Many thanks

I’m sorry but I fear you are just getting yourself into a heap of debt. You have admitted you were drunk and behind the wheel and unfortunately did not blow. Everyone can blow unless they have severe impaired lung capacity. You managed it once……. At your levels drink driving would have been a less severe charge. I worry this will be a harsher punishment in the long run because of the steps that you have taken but I do wish you well x

 

[SS13]

Good evening all, just wanted to provide an update on my case, which was due to go to trial in court today, a year after being initially charged.

I blew 65 at the roadside and after being given four attempts to provide two specimens at the station and only managing to provide one partial specimen (reading 41), I was charged with ‘Failure to Provide a specimen without reasonable excuse’.. a charge deemed as HRO.

I have no health conditions, but due to being in a highly emotional state, I struggled immensely with the machine to get a good enough blow. When I finally did get to grips of the machine on my final blow, it timed out, hence the partial reading. I was offered no further opportunities to provide a specimen and no blood/urine test was offered either. I was simply handed the charge sheet, my car keys and told I was free to leave the police station.

On advice from my solicitor, I pleaded Not Guilty at the first hearing, my defence being that I was not given a fair opportunity to provide and poor police procedure… the plea also gave my solicitor a chance to look at the CCTV, body cam evidence etc, which isn’t usually accessible until after a Not Guilty Plea, which is also unfair for those not in a financial position to fight a case and therefore see the evidence.

I have always admitted I was guilty of drink driving and if that had been the charge, I would have pleaded guilty at the first instance, no question. I even instructed my solicitor to ask the prosecution at my first hearing to change the charge to a drink drive charge and I would plead guilty, but they declined.

I’m thoroughly ashamed of driving whilst under the influence and massive lessons have been learnt.. However, this wasn’t what I was being charged with and I felt it unfair that I was going to be deemed a HRO. I owed it to myself to have it investigated.

It’s been a year fighting this case and it has cost over £ on solicitors fees but today my case was thrown out of court on the basis of poor police procedure and loss of evidence (mouth piece)

When I first posted my story on this forum, many where sceptical and even suggested I accept my charge and live with the consequences of my actions… but that would never have settled well with me. I felt I had been dealt an unfair hand by the police and owed it to myself to fight.

We all make mistakes but I was lucky enough to be in a finances position (help from friends and family) where I could fight the charge and win… so please, if you feel you have been unfairly treated in a situation such as mine, don’t give up hope.

Thank you to those that responded to my original post with words of encouragement and support, it gave me the fire I needed to fight xx

 

[Guygibson]

Good evening all, just wanted to provide an update on my case, which was due to go to trial in court today, a year after being initially charged.

I blew 65 at the roadside and after being given four attempts to provide two specimens at the station and only managing to provide one partial specimen (reading 41), I was charged with ‘Failure to Provide a specimen without reasonable excuse’.. a charge deemed as HRO.

I have no health conditions, but due to being in a highly emotional state, I struggled immensely with the machine to get a good enough blow. When I finally did get to grips of the machine on my final blow, it timed out, hence the partial reading. I was offered no further opportunities to provide a specimen and no blood/urine test was offered either. I was simply handed the charge sheet, my car keys and told I was free to leave the police station.

On advice from my solicitor, I pleaded Not Guilty at the first hearing, my defence being that I was not given a fair opportunity to provide and poor police procedure… the plea also gave my solicitor a chance to look at the CCTV, body cam evidence etc, which isn’t usually accessible until after a Not Guilty Plea, which is also unfair for those not in a financial position to fight a case and therefore see the evidence.

I have always admitted I was guilty of drink driving and if that had been the charge, I would have pleaded guilty at the first instance, no question. I even instructed my solicitor to ask the prosecution at my first hearing to change the charge to a drink drive charge and I would plead guilty, but they declined.

I’m thoroughly ashamed of driving whilst under the influence and massive lessons have been learnt.. However, this wasn’t what I was being charged with and I felt it unfair that I was going to be deemed a HRO. I owed it to myself to have it investigated.

It’s been a year fighting this case and it has cost over £ on solicitors fees but today my case was thrown out of court on the basis of poor police procedure and loss of evidence (mouth piece)

When I first posted my story on this forum, many where sceptical and even suggested I accept my charge and live with the consequences of my actions… but that would never have settled well with me. I felt I had been dealt an unfair hand by the police and owed it to myself to fight.

We all make mistakes but I was lucky enough to be in a finances position (help from friends and family) where I could fight the charge and win… so please, if you feel you have been unfairly treated in a situation such as mine, don’t give up hope.

Thank you to those that responded to my original post with words of encouragement and support, it gave me the fire I needed to fight xx

Congratulations as long as you learned a lesson that's what counts

 

[Gilln1]

Good evening all, just wanted to provide an update on my case, which was due to go to trial in court today, a year after being initially charged.

I blew 65 at the roadside and after being given four attempts to provide two specimens at the station and only managing to provide one partial specimen (reading 41), I was charged with ‘Failure to Provide a specimen without reasonable excuse’.. a charge deemed as HRO.

I have no health conditions, but due to being in a highly emotional state, I struggled immensely with the machine to get a good enough blow. When I finally did get to grips of the machine on my final blow, it timed out, hence the partial reading. I was offered no further opportunities to provide a specimen and no blood/urine test was offered either. I was simply handed the charge sheet, my car keys and told I was free to leave the police station.

On advice from my solicitor, I pleaded Not Guilty at the first hearing, my defence being that I was not given a fair opportunity to provide and poor police procedure… the plea also gave my solicitor a chance to look at the CCTV, body cam evidence etc, which isn’t usually accessible until after a Not Guilty Plea, which is also unfair for those not in a financial position to fight a case and therefore see the evidence.

I have always admitted I was guilty of drink driving and if that had been the charge, I would have pleaded guilty at the first instance, no question. I even instructed my solicitor to ask the prosecution at my first hearing to change the charge to a drink drive charge and I would plead guilty, but they declined.

I’m thoroughly ashamed of driving whilst under the influence and massive lessons have been learnt.. However, this wasn’t what I was being charged with and I felt it unfair that I was going to be deemed a HRO. I owed it to myself to have it investigated.

It’s been a year fighting this case and it has cost over £ on solicitors fees but today my case was thrown out of court on the basis of poor police procedure and loss of evidence (mouth piece)

When I first posted my story on this forum, many where sceptical and even suggested I accept my charge and live with the consequences of my actions… but that would never have settled well with me. I felt I had been dealt an unfair hand by the police and owed it to myself to fight.

We all make mistakes but I was lucky enough to be in a finances position (help from friends and family) where I could fight the charge and win… so please, if you feel you have been unfairly treated in a situation such as mine, don’t give up hope.

Thank you to those that responded to my original post with words of encouragement and support, it gave me the fire I needed to fight xx

Congratulations and well done for sticking to your guns !

I bet that's going to make for a good Christmas for you.

Just out of idol curiosity, how much do you think it cost financially? I only ask as you put....

It’s been a year fighting this case and it has cost over £ on solicitors fees

........But there is no figure.

If you don't want to share then no bother, I am just genuinely curious and its info like that which may help people make more informed decisions in future. Especially if they are just chancing their arm in the hope they 'might' get off in hope they may find a loophole. Unlike yourself who had a genuine case.

Well done again and best wishes to you.

 

[Guygibson]

Congratulations and well done for sticking to your guns !

I bet that's going to make for a good Christmas for you.

Just out of idol curiosity, how much do you think it cost financially? I only ask as you put....


........But there is no figure.

If you don't want to share then no bother, I am just genuinely curious and its info like that which may help people make more informed decisions in future. Especially if they are just chancing their arm in the hope they 'might' get off in hope they may find a loophole. Unlike yourself who had a genuine case.

Well done again and best wishes to you.

I wanna know how much has it cost you in the end

 

[SS13]

Thank you it’s the best Christmas present ever!

In cost just short of £5000.. and that’s only because the court date was vacated on two occasions, through no fault of our own. Each new date incurs new fees by the solicitor

 

[Xeronema]

I suspect that there wasn't much change out of £5000. You'd be looking at around £100 - £200 just to attend court and then upwards of £1000 for trial preperations. They attended court on at least one occasion after the not guilty plea. For a guilty plea, with mitigatation is around £1000 - £2000, so I can only imagine that the extra work involved with a not guilty plea, sifting through evidence etc would be double that, and more.

Obviously I'm guessing here (quiet day). Hopefully they'll let us know, as it may help others when decided whether to use a duty solicitor and go guilty or chance it with a not guilty plea and fight.

Edit: Damn, I missed getting my post in before SS13 did. lol oh well. I was on the money then.

 

[Xeronema]

Ah ok, well I guess I wasn't 'on the money' then, given that you incurred fees for having to go to court on multiple occasions. I'm glad you got it sorted either way.

The fact that you had to go to court multiple times and pay more to your solicitor is probably a good thing to mention. It's good for anyone else wishing to fight to know - things happen out of our control that can mean the difference between being able to keep a solicitor on the case and having to try and 'go it alone' (due to lack of funds).

 

[anemone]

Hi all

I’m new to the forum but have been avidly reading as many of the posts about failure to provide cases as possible due to my court case being in the next two weeks.

Two weeks ago I stupidly got into my car to flee a domestic situation with my now ex partner, after having a few drinks earlier in the evening. I was pulled by the police due to him having called them and breathalysed with a reading of 65. I was taken to the station and given three attempts to provide.. I honestly tried my best but only my third attempt gave a reading of 45. The police then charged me with failure to provide, gave me a court date and then let me go. My issue is that I didn’t refuse the test, I just couldn’t muster enough puff to get two decent readings. If the officer badge given me a fourth attempt I may have managed a second reading but he wasn’t having it. I wasn’t given the breath results either…

I’m now in bits as to what to plea.. I’ve got one of those online solicitors who are telling me to plead not guilty so they can see the CCTV and see whether there was an issue with procedure or the machine but I’m a realist and know that they promise the earth and paid handsomely however the outcome.. I’m regretting bothering with them in the first place

I just want to be realistic.. it’s my first offence and I’ve had a clean driving license for over ten years and just want this over with.. is there any way of doing a plea bargain and asking for the charge to be changed to a drink drive charge due to me honestly attempting to blow a reading?? I’ve messed up, that I know but I really did try

Thanks for your help in advance

Good evening all, just wanted to provide an update on my case, which was due to go to trial in court today, a year after being initially charged.

I blew 65 at the roadside and after being given four attempts to provide two specimens at the station and only managing to provide one partial specimen (reading 41), I was charged with ‘Failure to Provide a specimen without reasonable excuse’.. a charge deemed as HRO.

I have no health conditions, but due to being in a highly emotional state, I struggled immensely with the machine to get a good enough blow. When I finally did get to grips of the machine on my final blow, it timed out, hence the partial reading. I was offered no further opportunities to provide a specimen and no blood/urine test was offered either. I was simply handed the charge sheet, my car keys and told I was free to leave the police station.

On advice from my solicitor, I pleaded Not Guilty at the first hearing, my defence being that I was not given a fair opportunity to provide and poor police procedure… the plea also gave my solicitor a chance to look at the CCTV, body cam evidence etc, which isn’t usually accessible until after a Not Guilty Plea, which is also unfair for those not in a financial position to fight a case and therefore see the evidence.

I have always admitted I was guilty of drink driving and if that had been the charge, I would have pleaded guilty at the first instance, no question. I even instructed my solicitor to ask the prosecution at my first hearing to change the charge to a drink drive charge and I would plead guilty, but they declined.

I’m thoroughly ashamed of driving whilst under the influence and massive lessons have been learnt.. However, this wasn’t what I was being charged with and I felt it unfair that I was going to be deemed a HRO. I owed it to myself to have it investigated.

It’s been a year fighting this case and it has cost over £ on solicitors fees but today my case was thrown out of court on the basis of poor police procedure and loss of evidence (mouth piece)

When I first posted my story on this forum, many where sceptical and even suggested I accept my charge and live with the consequences of my actions… but that would never have settled well with me. I felt I had been dealt an unfair hand by the police and owed it to myself to fight.

We all make mistakes but I was lucky enough to be in a finances position (help from friends and family) where I could fight the charge and win… so please, if you feel you have been unfairly treated in a situation such as mine, don’t give up hope.

Thank you to those that responded to my original post with words of encouragement and support, it gave me the fire I needed to fight xx

Thank you it’s the best Christmas present ever!

In cost just short of £5000.. and that’s only because the court date was vacated on two occasions, through no fault of our own. Each new date incurs new fees by the solicitor

Really thrilled for you. I was one of those who encouraged you to fight back in Oct 2022. So glad you did! Have a great Christmas!

 

[Gilln1]

Thank you it’s the best Christmas present ever!

In cost just short of £5000.. and that’s only because the court date was vacated on two occasions, through no fault of our own. Each new date incurs new fees by the solicitor

I'd say money well spent !!

Congrats again

 

[SS13]

Really thrilled for you. I was one of those who encouraged you to fight back in Oct 2022. So glad you did! Have a great Christmas!

You certainly did and thank you so much for that, it really did make a difference x

I was so close to throwing in the towel but I knew in my heart that I had been treated unfairly by the police and had to see it through, regardless of the outcome.
Thanks again everyone